Did you know this?

[BlueAngel]

I don't think even Bush knows.
Of course I didn't know. How could I?

Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies in Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?

Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?

Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the reestablished Fulbright program?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?! They have 5- 100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?

OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW!

WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!

Instead of reflecting our love for our country, we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades.


The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves two purposes. It is intended to undermine the world's perception of the United States thus minimizing consequent support, and it is intended to discourage American citizens.

---- Above facts are verifiable on the Department of Defense web site.
Pass it on!

[Roadranger13]

Over 2100 brave American military have dided, over 16,000 have been wounded and not properly taken care of back here at home. Over 30,000 (Bush's words) Irac citizens have dided since we have been in a place we never should have been to give them cell phones and a stock exchange. those places would not have had to be rebuilt if we had not bombed them in the first place. The DOD dosen't tell you that only a few people have electricty for only a few hours a dat. They have very little safe drinking water because the contractors took the money and have done very little to rebuild water plants.

[scubadiver]

Uh gee RoadRanger I pretty much think the postives outweigh the negatives. In case you didn't know freedom isn't cheap. It'll take time to get electricy (sp) other parts of the infrasturcture back up. BTW I don't like a ruler like Hussien who based his leadership style on that of Hitler and Stalin.

[Lars]

After reading that impressive list, my first thought was how insignificant each item really is, if you compare it with your average modern society and my second thought was: Where does this come from?

Of course the DoD is going to use every mean to justify their mission, even if it is a seriously misguided one. It is very expensive to keep soldiers in a war zone, both in lives and treasury, and the military should be kept for doing serious damage to enemies by blowing them up and provide a hail of bullets and not trying "nation building", which is what they have currently been assigned to do.

In modern history, the US has a depressing record of deposing one bad guy, only to end up with a worse one. There is nothing to show as of today that this string will be broken.

If you look at the list of "accomplishments", comparatively they are rather enemic. The problem is that Americans are not good imperialists, even if the Bush apologists want to change that. Most of that effort would probably be better spent securing the US borders and building a stronger economy, where the average citizen would thrive, get better educated and have a much better health care system.

[Big_Al]

Ah, I was waiting for the Lars spin. It is amazing how some folks spend their whole lives with their head up their, oops, head in the sand. I have some issues with some of Bush's policies, but sometimes, good news is just good news. Thanks Angel.

[BlueAngel]

Ah, I was waiting for the Lars spin. It is amazing how some folks spend their whole lives with their head up their, oops, head in the sand. I have some issues with some of Bush's policies, but sometimes, good news is just good news. Thanks Angel.

Thanks for the support Al. I guess it's just too much for some people to stop and think "Gee, how nice for the Iraqi people. I'm glad they're getting their feet back on the ground." All they seem to care about is their hatred for Bush. They only see trees, not the forest.

I also have some issues with some of Bush's policies. But once again, the positives outweigh the negatives. They're just mad they have to have a Republican President for 8 years. (Hey, we had to spend 8 years with Clinton in office.) I'm sure these guys will calm down after the next election when a democrat will surely win. That's just the way things go. :noclue:

[Lars]

What is notable here is the avoiding of addressing the substance of my dissent. No doubt there have been some positive development in Iraq, but there are overwhelming dismal ones and a lot of lives and money has been spent for very few results.

The situation can be turned around, but time is running out. A majority of Americans no longer support the current administration policy regarding Iraq and it is highly doubtful that will be reversed anytime soon.

A new government has been elected there and they have about six months to establish that they can govern, because after that, US election concerns will dictate what is to be done over there, with all the attendant hype.

It is one thing to swallow government propaganda with a silly grin on your face and another to accurately assess the situation and formulate policies that will actually work and I can see why the admirers of this president, with increasing caveats, want to avoid having to take responsibility for what has been a rather dismal performance.

[wombat]

Lars:


Would it kill you to say anything nice about your adopted country???


Lars: Suffering from a bad case of Optical Rectitus

[SteelCityNomad]

I don't think even Bush knows.
Of course I didn't know. How could I?

Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies in Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

(and the rest of the list)




Do you know who is paying for all this???????(Hint look at your children and then their children) :wow:

[JSontag]

To be honest, the normal average Joe (Us, yes, you and me) don´t have a clue what´s going on there and WHY it´s going on. :thinking:

And don´t try to give me that "I know because I............." face it, you don´t know. All you know is what that 32 year old man called a reporter wrote in yesterdays paper :wow:

I´ve laughed my a$$ off listening to these "I know" stories :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Trust me, there is a lot of things that you and i are not meant to hear or know about ;) ;)

Now let´s all go do something fun and stop fighting over these political oppinions :)

[BlueAngel]

What is notable here is the avoiding of addressing the substance of my dissent. No doubt there have been some positive development in Iraq, but there are overwhelming dismal ones and a lot of lives and money has been spent for very few results.

The situation can be turned around, but time is running out. A majority of Americans no longer support the current administration policy regarding Iraq and it is highly doubtful that will be reversed anytime soon.

A new government has been elected there and they have about six months to establish that they can govern, because after that, US election concerns will dictate what is to be done over there, with all the attendant hype.

It is one thing to swallow government propaganda with a silly grin on your face and another to accurately assess the situation and formulate policies that will actually work and I can see why the admirers of this president, with increasing caveats, want to avoid having to take responsibility for what has been a rather dismal performance.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize your dissent had substance.

Nobody likes war, including me. I'd rather we didn't have to go over there in the first place. The fact is that we are over there and what's done is done. And as I recall, it was Congress who voted to send us to Iraq, and that includes several democratic congressmen.

Since you're so self-righteous and self-centered, I'm sure you believe that I don't give a rats behind about what our military is going though over there. Let me enlighten you to the fact that my brother is in the air force and is dangerously close to being sent over there. So don't you dare lecture me on the unpleasantries of war.

If there's anybody here who's swallowing ridiculous propaganda, it's you and the others who seem to believe that the war is some sort of "performance" that you can direct.

[Curlyfrompgh]

The situation can be turned around,
:wtf:

The 'situation' is we are WINNING. Why we would you want to turn that around :thinking: :wtf:

but time is running out.
Yep it is! Aint it great? Yesterday I saw SEE BS actually showing GOOD news about Iraq. :thinking: Maybe, just maybe, it's getting too big to ignore even for them. (That's saying alot!)
:rofl:
A majority of Americans no longer support the current administration policy regarding Iraq
Now you need to be honest about this when you ask Americans "Do you support the Administration's policy on Iraq?" and you get an answer "No, I don't think they are going far enough!" Then your poll would count that as a "No". There is more to that issue and being intellectually dishonest is no longer hiding the fact that your side is losing. :harhar:
and it is highly doubtful that will be reversed anytime soon.
I'm hoping not at all. :yes:
A new government has been elected there and they have about six months to establish that they can govern, because after that, US election concerns will dictate what is to be done over there, with all the attendant hype.
And once that is achieved what will be your next milepost for success? Where will you stop moving the bar?

[Big_Al]

I'm sorry. I didn't realize your dissent had substance.

Nobody likes war, including me. I'd rather we didn't have to go over there in the first place. The fact is that we are over there and what's done is done. And as I recall, it was Congress who voted to send us to Iraq, and that includes several democratic congressmen.

Since you're so self-righteous and self-centered, I'm sure you believe that I don't give a rats behind about what our military is going though over there. Let me enlighten you to the fact that my brother is in the air force and is dangerously close to being sent over there. So don't you dare lecture me on the unpleasantries of war.

If there's anybody here who's swallowing ridiculous propaganda, it's you and the others who seem to believe that the war is some sort of "performance" that you can direct.

If only I was 20 years younger :love: What a woman! :inlove:

[Lars]

Most people realize that there is a vast difference between the nation as a whole and whatever current government that is in place and if you don't realize that this occupation of Iraq has been seriously mishandled, then you have essentially made yourself irrelevant to any further discussions.

There was plenty of professional advice available from the military and from diplomats prior to the invasion and it was all ignored and thus we are now in a situation that you can't win militarily and the best you can hope for is a political settlement.

The question about that is whether it will be a lasting one. The US has unfortunately a sorry record of getting rid of one bad guy and ending up with a worse one. Hopefully that string will be broken, but I am afraid it will take a lot more for that to happen than letting this crew keep messing things up.

[wombat]

Same old Lars

If the facts don't conform to the pet theories then the facts must be disposed of.


Anyway ALL politics aside and at the risk of political incorrectness (is that a word? ....hmm,, spellcheck says it is)


Merry Christmas Lars

[Lars]

Merry Christmas to you too, Dave, and maybe Santa will bring you some civics knowledge, which may clear up some of your misconceptions for the future.

The facts remain that this administration has fumbled again and again, starting before the invasion and meanwhile, those mainly responsible for the attacks on 9/11 are still at large and it is still questionable whether the cost in lives and treasury has made the nation any more secure.

I suspect that one day even the Bush apologists will realize that it would have been better to spend all that money on securing the national borders that are leaking like a sieve. At least I hope so, before it is too late.

[Foxfire]

While this is a very interesting discussion, wouldn't it be better in the Political forum?

[Lars]

By all means, make sure that any interesting and serious discussions are hidden away in the closet, where few will see it and tender sensibilities are not disturbed.

[scubadiver]

Lars the borders have been a major problem long before Bush was elected. The 19 of 9/11 were here LEGALLY. Yes there has been mistakes. True Bin Laden hasn't been caught yet. It took 3 years for Yamamto (sp) to be killed during WW2. It was also a stroke of luck. The soldiers (the NCO's and EM's)who were there are the ones who are saying things are getting better. So Lars who should we believe the lame media or the troops who were there and some , if not most are willing to go back to finish the job. One thing your forgetting is it will take TIME (that means longer than 3 years) for things to get to the point to where we can bring are troops home. Hussien had 12 years to get his act together. He didn't. He also tortured and murdered his own people. If you did research on Hussien you will learn he admires and respect Hitler and Stalin. Do you remember those 2 ? Was there WMD's found no. Did Hussein have and USE WMD's .YES. Would he have used them in the furture YES. Inculding nukes.

[Lars]

I doubt that there is little disagreement that Saddam Hussein was a bad apple, but he was contained and the sanctions against Iraq was making it much weaker. The question now is whether the US by solving one problem has created a much bigger one for the future.

There are certain conditions that have to be present for democracy to work and just about none of them can be found in Iraq today, which means that Iraq would need to be a ward of the US for quite some time and it may not be worth the effort

They have been trying to get their act together in that area for the last four thousand years and I don't think that can be accelerated, or have any valid expectations of success. We are still dealing with the results of a very flawed policy and more of the same is unlikely to change that situation any time soon.

What is needed is a realistic policy and I don't see one yet and I doubt this administration is capable of finding one. What I do expect is that sometime next summer, some bogus claims about the situation will be made and used as an excuse to start to withdraw US troops. Afterall, next year is an election year, in the US and it won't matter what the election results are in Iraq.

It is nice that they have had several elections, but it may not matter in the long run. The most likely outcome today is a widening civil war, which may split the country along the three major participants, which may not be such a bad idea, as long as the fighting does not spread into neighboring countries.

A worse outcome would be somebody worse than Saddam Hussein and that is certainly not ouside the realm of possibilities either.

[Bada-boom, bada-bing]

I doubt that there is little disagreement that Saddam Hussein was a bad apple, but he was contained and the sanctions against Iraq was making it much weaker. The question now is whether the US by solving one problem has created a much bigger one for the future.

There are certain conditions that have to be present for democracy to work and just about none of them can be found in Iraq today, which means that Iraq would need to be a ward of the US for quite some time and it may not be worth the effort

They have been trying to get their act together in that area for the last four thousand years and I don't think that can be accelerated, or have any valid expectations of success. We are still dealing with the results of a very flawed policy and more of the same is unlikely to change that situation any time soon.

What is needed is a realistic policy and I don't see one yet and I doubt this administration is capable of finding one. What I do expect is that sometime next summer, some bogus claims about the situation will be made and used as an excuse to start to withdraw US troops. Afterall, next year is an election year, in the US and it won't matter what the election results are in Iraq.

It is nice that they have had several elections, but it may not matter in the long run. The most likely outcome today is a widening civil war, which may split the country along the three major participants, which may not be such a bad idea, as long as the fighting does not spread into neighboring countries.

A worse outcome would be somebody worse than Saddam Hussein and that is certainly not ouside the realm of possibilities either.


:noclue: :noclue: Once again, Lars, I'd like to attempt to bring you back to the original topic, which was positive news coming from Iraq. Try not to drift.

[windcatcher]

Interesting info

Thanks BA! :)

[BlueAngel]

If only I was 20 years younger :love: What a woman! :inlove:

Aww, gee Big Al... :love:

[Big_Al]

If only I was 20 years younger :love: What a woman! :inlove:

Aww, gee Big Al... :love:

Don't start flirting now. My ole ticker will give out.

[Lars]

One clear sign of intellectual inferiority is what when their substance is gone, the efforts turn to butt kissing among all the mutual admirers.

The really important news about Iraq is that GWB is finally talking about reality, sort of. I just wonder how many Americans will think that establishing a Muslim theocracy there will be worth the price?

But then, there is nothing in GWB's background that would make him a notable Commander-in-Chief and that may be the most valid explaination for all the missteps. Right after the political considerations and exploitations.

[BlueAngel]

One final comment...

Lars, read my lips: :harhar:

[Big_Al]

One clear sign of intellectual inferiority is what when their substance is gone, the efforts turn to butt kissing among all the mutual admirers.

A liberal oughtta know. I just thought it interesting that a 21 year old slammed you so good. :harhar:

[Lars]

I don't think age is the issue, Al. But the lack of substance is glaring. And as with so many who have nothing to contribute, it becomes a personal focus and frequently a juvenile one.

If things are going so good in Iraq, why are US troops still there? Why are US tax payers still being hit for a billion dollars a week? Not to mention all the dead and wounded and for what?

There is a reason why the C-in-C won't define "victory", even if he talks about it all the time. There is also a reason why out of a dozen Iraq war veterans running for Congress next year, 10 out of 12 are running as Democrats.

Just like in Viet Nam, the biggest losers are the supporters of a failed policy and just like back then, we are going to see all the excuses again, except the real one, which is that some politicians should not be allowed to be C-in-C. They are just not qualified.

[Big_Al]

If things are going so good in ****, why are US troops still there? Why are US tax payers still being hit for a billion dollars a week? Not to mention all the dead and wounded and for what?



That same question could have been asked about Europe or the Pacific in 1944. In hindsight, it would have been a stupid question, eh?

[Lars]

I think there was an eminent reason to fight WWII, Al, and you are still evading the issue.

[Roadranger13]

Lars, you are right on the money. Someone said a few post back that it is alright for almost 2200 of our troops to die fighting for freedom. Trouble is it is not OUR freedom they are dying for!!! We were lied into this war by Bush and his buddies. The point about all of the so called positive things is they came from the DOD who has lied to us all along. Senators and congressmen coming back from tours over in Irac can't see all these wonderous things that are going on. How come it takes only about 8 months to train an American G.I. and after three years we are not sure how many Irac soldiers are trained because everone in the Pentagon has a different answer! Bush has changed his story at least 4 times as to why we are there. Their freedom was not the first reason. Are you willing to have a relative, friend, to go over without the proper equipment and fight so someone can have a cellphone?